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Whistle mystery on the INDIANA

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  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    On closer inspection you may be right about it being three whistles Steve. I've been seeing it as two whistles all along on this picture, not accounting for that goofy elbow extension which I did not notice earlier. Something like this sure throws you a curve. I'm used to seeing whistle manifolds arranged as a trident with the largest whistle always in the center, just as it appears to be in the other photos. This photo seems to show something completely different. I agree that we definitely need a larger, clearer picture to fully evaluate it.


    Originally posted by Steve Huffman View Post
    Could be. Maybe the slightest difference in length of the largest whistle can be seen by comparing these photos, but even that could be subject to photo aberations. It still looks like the same 3 whistles and manifold to me, with the center whistle on a goofy elbow extension.

    The notion of boatyards using temporary "house whistles" during fitting-out makes perfect sense to me, but is that really what we are seeing in this case?

    I could be wrong, but how can we be 100% certain about this, unless better photos of these differences come along? I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'm not sure I see significant differences between the 3 whistles, in these photos. (?)

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  • inactive user 01
    replied
    3 whistles

    I'll try and put these images side by side. I think Steve is exactly right and what I've been saying all along is that there are three whistles in both these images and the only difference from this set up and the later pictures of the Minnie Bay whistle in place is the goofy extension on the big whistle.
    Attached Files

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  • Steve Huffman
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard Weisenberger View Post
    I believe I have just made an attachment of the photo in question. It shows an unscaled 2 bell chime. It should now be apparent to everyone that the whistle on the left side of the manifold is significantly longer than the whistle on the right side, but not much different in diameter.

    Just to make sure we are on the same page.. You're saying the photo you posted has only 2 whistles on the manifold? This is definitely NOT what I see in that photo.

    I see the same 3 whistles -- due to the camera's angle, the smallest whistle is directly in front of the largest whistle on the goofy elbow extension. The effect of the smallest whistle being directly in front of, and inline with, the largest whistle makes the largest whistle look significantly longer, but it's not. It's a trick of the camera angle. At least, that is what I'm seeing...

    If I have missed your point, please feel free to explain again..

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    2 bell unscaled chime in question

    I believe I have just made an attachment of the photo in question. It shows an unscaled 2 bell chime. It should now be apparent to everyone that the whistle on the left side of the manifold is significantly longer than the whistle on the right side, but not much different in diameter. That would make the longer, skinnier whistle on the left side of the manifold of smaller scale than the whistle on the right side and much more prone to overblowing before the shorter, fatter whistle on the right could even fully blow.

    During quilling such a whistle would start out with the longer, skinnier whistle sounding the lower note and the shorter fatter whistle sounding the higher note. As the valve is opened further a point would be reached where the longer, skinnier whistle would overblow to its 3rd harmonic (in musical terms that's an octave and a fifth) and actually become the higher pitch whistle of the two all while the shorter, fatter whistle continues to blow louder and somewhat higher in pitch.

    This is an unstable condition and not a very pretty combination, as the chord drastically changes as the whistle is blown. You want the notes of a chime whistle to track and maintain the chord relationship as the pitches rise during quilling. There is no way this whistle could do that! That would not be a problem with scaled chimes.

    All pictures showing 3 bell chimes are more or less scaled, as the diameters of the individual whistles increase with the length.
    Attached Files

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  • Frank X. Prudent
    replied
    If you can "blow up" the photos so that the pilot house and smokestacks are the same size in each photo, then maybe those inclined to get measurements of the various whistles can get some fairly accurate numbers. Just a thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Huffman
    replied
    Richard,
    I'm still not seeing the significant differences you apparently see in these photos...

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    Thanks Jim. The photo on the right clearly shows the unscaled two bell chime that I have been talking about. I believe this shows it somewhat better.


    Originally posted by Jim Reising View Post
    The INDIANA came out with the whistle from the MINNIE BAY according to Ways Directory, but that whistle did not appear on the boat until just days before it came out. Originally the INDIANA was to have a very strange looking whistle indeed.........just take a look:
    Photo 1.....the INDIANA being outfitted at the bank at Howards. She's so close to being finished there is smoke coming from the stack.
    Photo 2.....we'll zero in on the whistle that was installed at that time. Strange looking affair, I've never seen one like it either before or since.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    Very interesting. This make a minimum of three whistles seen on this boat!

    Originally posted by Jim Reising View Post
    To me these are two completely different whistles. I have enlarged them as much as I can. I think that Travis may have the explanation, the first whistle was just temporary while they waited to get the MINNIE BAY's whstle.

    Leave a comment:


  • inactive user 01
    replied
    One last "argument" I have is clearly the manifold is the same in all the pictures, there is no argueing that, I think.

    If I was Capt. Howard I would know how much my workers disliked carrying heavy whistles to the tops of pilothouses for instalation. (I know this personally from lugging heavy whistles around every year in the summer) If I had a "house" whistle, I'd make sure the darn thing was a single bell to keep my workers from throwing the whole thing in the river from frustration of having to drag it up to the pilothouse knowing it would be coming back down. It's possible as I've seen the Str. Chicamuaga (sp) gong whistle (now in the museum) on several of the Howards boats.

    From Steve's pictures of the Minnie Bay it appears that the INDIANA did not re-use her manifold as the whistle are set way further apart while on Minnie.

    This has been a fun thread though Jim. Thanks for making us work our brains alittle.

    Aaron

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Huffman
    replied
    Could be. Maybe the slightest difference in length of the largest whistle can be seen by comparing these photos, but even that could be subject to photo aberations. It still looks like the same 3 whistles and manifold to me, with the center whistle on a goofy elbow extension.

    The notion of boatyards using temporary "house whistles" during fitting-out makes perfect sense to me, but is that really what we are seeing in this case?

    I could be wrong, but how can we be 100% certain about this, unless better photos of these differences come along? I'll gladly stand corrected, but I'm not sure I see significant differences between the 3 whistles, in these photos. (?)

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Reising
    replied
    Completely different whistles

    To me these are two completely different whistles. I have enlarged them as much as I can. I think that Travis may have the explanation, the first whistle was just temporary while they waited to get the MINNIE BAY's whstle.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Huffman
    replied
    Maybe I'm just not seeing the same images in this thread either... I don't really see the difference in this 3-chime set, except that the center whistle is on a funny elbow-extension on the manifold prior to the trial run. A few days later on the trial run it looks like a typical 3-chime set, with 3 scaled whistles...

    But I don't see how these photos are large enough and clear enough to say with 100% certainty that these are not the same 3 whistles in all photos -- the only difference being the funny center elbow extension on the manifold.

    Attached herewith is a photo of the Minnie Bay and close-up of her whistles. Again, the quality it not good enough to say these are the same whistles, but it is roughly the same setup and sizes... ??????
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    You are looking at the third picture posted. In it the whistles are scaled and it appears there may be room for a fourth whistle on the manifold. Travis and I are talking about the view in the first two pictures to be posted. The very first picture posted in this thread shows two unscaled whistles of approximately the same diameter but of very different working lengths. The latter pictures show three scaled whistles whose diameter varies with their working lengths.


    Originally posted by AJ Richardson View Post
    Well they say the first thing to go is the eyesight. I'm not seeing what you fellas are. The whistles all look exactly the same. The different picture angles might be playing tricks but I'd guess a 7 or 8" for the big one, 5 or 6" for the aft whistle and 3 or 4" for the forward one. The manifold in all the pictures looks the same too. We'll I'm not an expert just dable in whistle history, construction, use, etc. Cap'n Bates what are those measurements for the Indiana whistle?

    What do I know?

    Aaron

    Leave a comment:


  • inactive user 01
    replied
    Well they say the first thing to go is the eyesight. I'm not seeing what you fellas are. The whistles all look exactly the same. The different picture angles might be playing tricks but I'd guess a 7 or 8" for the big one, 5 or 6" for the aft whistle and 3 or 4" for the forward one. The manifold in all the pictures looks the same too. We'll I'm not an expert just dable in whistle history, construction, use, etc. Cap'n Bates what are those measurements for the Indiana whistle?

    What do I know?

    Aaron

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard Weisenberger
    replied
    I believe Travis is on the right track. I believe it was something hurredly thrown together or maybe kept on hand so that the boat could have one for a test run. It didn't have to sound good, but just provide a warning.


    Originally posted by Travis Vasconcelos View Post
    Jim,

    You don't think there was a "house whistle" that was used to facilitate a trial run, perhaps? Since none of the whistles in this rather strange one are similar in size and/or diameter to the whistle she came out with, I can't see hypothesizing it was the same whistles on a different manifold.

    My guess is it was a house whistle used to get a trial run done while they were waiting on the delivery of the MINNE BAY whistle. Cause I can't imagine they'd have taken her out with out anything. With out radio and radar that would be just plain dangerous! Who'd know she was comin around 6 Mile and/or Goose Island upbound? Or for that matter into the canal?

    Travis

    Leave a comment:

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